Gordon Brown, who is to succeed Tony Blair as the next British prime minister, is proposing to triple the length of pre-charge detention period for terror suspects. So that's going to be 90 days. And he also plans to make amendments to the laws so phone tap evidence can be used in court.
search google for more
Human rights organizations again seems to have found a bone to byte on. I won't blame them, they need funds to keep the organization and they wouldn't receive funds unless they oppose a government.
But what we must understand is that every country who are facing terrorist threats are forced to make such compromises which indeed would violate human rights to ensure national security. It's about safeguarding the lives of the people in a country.
infringement of civil liberties is fairly dodgy, sets bad precedents.
ReplyDeleteThe questions that need to be asked are: once started, where does it stop? Second, does it bring the desired benefit? and if so at what cost?
The debate rages around these arguments and I will not go through them but will leave you with this:
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the sick, the so-called incurables, and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't mentally ill.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me
attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
When a government is over-powerful (due to the removel of normal checks and balances that keep a government in control) there is a tendancy to abuse its power.
ReplyDeleteRecent examples of our government abusing the laws available to get at its opponents include Tiran Alles and Sripathy Sooriarchichi. It is no accident that Mangala went overseas after refusing the portfolio allocated to him.
There is also the case of the railway trade unionists, arrested as being Sinhala tigers, now nothing is heard of them.
Or the tamil journalist held for 6 months and later released for lack of evidence.
However much this news titillates those who have a kink for the suppression of civil liberties, the fact of the matter is that this legislation, assuming this Mahasen is reporting accurately, will not pass. It will be challenged in the European Courts and will be struck down pretty quickly as being inconsistent with the ECHR if the UK courts don't do it themselves. It just won't happen. The US Courts are also cracking down on preventive detention now(Zavydas)and the whole theory of cracking down on Human Rights to combat terror is falling out of currency. As usual though, idiotic people from the third world cling on to Western ideas which the west has long discarded and reap the consequences while the west learns quickly from their mistakes and march on their way from successful to more successful. It's shit.
ReplyDelete'But what we must understand is that every country who are facing terrorist threats are forced to make such compromises which indeed would violate human rights to ensure national security. It's about safeguarding the lives of the people in a country.' - So we are assuming that you wont be taken into custody unless you are guity right? Just wanted to clarify.
ReplyDeleteThere's always the possibility of an innocent being taken in to custody.
ReplyDeleteIt's giving benefit to suspicion till it's proven.
British police shot dead an innocent tourist in a subway - which is too extreme - yet a modest level should be accepted when the country is under terrorist threats.
Mahasen,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if your parrot pictures are scarier than this post!
Like I said, you're not going to get any hints as to how to combat an insurgency by cracking down on human rights from the west. All those efforts were failures and the tide is turning. The west has moved on and you're still in the doldrums.
ReplyDeleteJack Point: How clicheed matchang. Why don't you quote Ben Franklin as well? Seems that peaceniks can only oppose logic and rationality with ctrl+v poetry.
ReplyDeleteKulendra: You're worse. You'll be taken into custody if they find you suspicious. Guilt would be proven or disproven in court. If you're really guilty, but the evidence is not good enough, you may be "suicided".
Niran: Moved on? Yes, but not moved off. Protecting the lives of millions is a good enough reason to inconvenience a few. Human rights are relative, not absolute.
JMal, somehow I don't think you've got your theory right. The measures in place must be demonstrated to protect the lives of millions and the action must be shown to be proportional and necessary in a democratic society. That means you can't trample on human rights just because you're too lazy to do good intel work. Do you homework proper, the courts in the West are telling their governments and ensure that human rights are being protected. That's why not every vaguely Eastern looking guy like yourself isn't hassled in Ozzie and locked up indefinitely as terror suspects. Kapiche??? Pure assertion just does not cut and as we speak Guantanamo inmates are being released... Btw, did anyone hear Edwards and Obama agree during the last Dem debate that the war on terror is just a slogan. Times are a changing. Keep up.
ReplyDeletein the first place they came for people in the border villages with machetes and I did not speak up. I live in Colombo. Who cares about some backward villagers?
ReplyDeletethen they came for Neelan and Lakshman Kadi and I did not speak up. I hated the elected government more.
then they came for civilians with claymores and suicide bombers and bombs in trains. they called it reprisal for airstrikes. I did not speak up. I was too busy blaming the security forces for doing their job. Perhaps if we ask them pleasantly, they will not attack us?
and when they come for me? my comrades will call it another white van abduction and blame the government.
Anon @ 11.35: That comment worths the hearts and souls of many of us.
ReplyDeleteMahasen, almost every Tamil person commenting on this blog including myself made it clear that terrorism cannot be justified which is why the anon you agree with is making a strange claim. We have acknowledged that atrocities have been commited by the LTTE. Amnesty has also condemned them. The LTTE has also not condemned amnesty for criticising them. The prevalent view appears to be that the Sri Lankan government or armed forces should somehow be exempt from criticism. It all appears to be one sided to me. If one took this view then you are endorsing the view that Tamils are subhuman species and sinhalese soldiers carrying guns are superior beings.
ReplyDeleteWith this one sided approach, peace is impossible.
I found that website that I spoke about in a previous post. ie with the quote from Martin Luther King Jr. (look on the top right hand corner under spotlight). Maybe the Sri Lankans are too good for people like this, I don't know. For what it is worth, here is the link:
http://slceasefire.blogspot.com/
Anyway, thanks for answering my questions politely and with patience despite the fact that our views on these matters are different. I know some of the things I said were very difficult to take. Also I am aware that you have family in the armed forces and I have refrained from criticising or highlighting some specific concerns with regard to some of the members' conduct. I am not perfect but am trying my best to be honest while retaining respect for these things.
If a Tamil fear being abducted / detained / questioned / get caught in between fire, we Sinhalese, together with Tamils, Muslims and all other races living in the rest of the country fear of being blown up by a claymore, being bombed by a “scooter” air plane, being shot (not just being caught in cross fire) by a LTTE carder etc.
ReplyDeleteOur lives are no safer than of a person living in vanni. We fear for our lives thus support the actions that could/would/may safeguard us from terrorism.
One sided? I don’t think so. It’s loss of lives against loss of freedom. Would you recon if we were to reside in LTTE controlled territory, we would have the same rights as Tamils living in government controlled areas? We would be butchered if we speak against the LTTE like some Tamils speak against the government.
Mahasen,
ReplyDeleteYour statements are still one sided. You have not spoken about those who are caught between both sides. Those people in the North and the East...irrespective of race, are caught between the LTTE, paramillitaries and the Sri Lankan government forces. I don't understand why you make a statement that your life is no safer than someone living in the Vanni. If you are angry about the bombs set off, far less frequently in Colombo...imagine how these people must be feeling about being bombarded almost continously.
Even if people in Colombo have to put up with far less than these people in the war affected areas, I said I was sorry that people got killed recently by those bombs set off in Colombo and I stand by that.
Am I right in saying that you will only be satisfied with war and vengence?
The topic I tossed is about detaining terror suspects for extended periods without pressing charges in order to facilitate proper inquiries and to safeguard national security.
ReplyDelete“You have not spoken about those who are caught between both sides.” Yes, because I was talking about terror suspect detention in the first place.
“I don't understand why you make a statement that your life is no safer than someone living in the Vanni.” I still claim it. They are not being targeted but are caught in between and we are being targeted. If you calculate the percentage killed it wouldn’t be much different.
“Even if people in Colombo have to put up with far less than these people in the war affected areas, I said I was sorry that people got killed recently by those bombs set off in Colombo and I stand by that.”, I’m sorry about all the civilians that gets killed. But would I being sorry stop LTTE from killing me?
“Am I right in saying that you will only be satisfied with war and vengence?” Wrong, I would be satisfied when the LTTE put down their weapons.
You call it "just being caught in crossfire". Similar to the american use of the term..."colateral damage". This is a description of what being "just caught in cross fire" is like.
ReplyDeleteTamil civilians victimized in Iluppaikkadavai bombing
January 5th, 2007
By D.B.S. Jeyaraj
http://transcurrents.com/tamiliana/archives/263
"I’m sorry about all the civilians that gets killed. But would I being sorry stop LTTE from killing me?"
ReplyDeleteMahasen, you probably think I am an idealistic loony. But I sincerely believe that it is the first step to peace. If all sides express regret for the damage that has been inflicted on the innocents and eachother, and begin working towards rectifying past mistakes. That is what the peace process and the ceasefire was about. Problem is, a thing like that takes time, and people want quick fixes for what is a complex problem.
Other side of the story
ReplyDeletehttp://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20070106_11
http://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20070105_03
http://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20070106_07
...
http://www.defence.lk/arc.asp?fname=20070106.asp
Sory...just one more thing. I read this article from that site I gave you:
ReplyDeletehttp://slceasefire.blogspot.com/2007/05/sri-lankan-steers-parents-to-peace.html
Have you heard of this woman or this group? Must admit, this is the first time I have heard of them. They are doing alot of work to get both sides to work with each other.
Ok...fair enough..but Mahasen, those list of sites you have just given me is like me giving you an LTTE website. Do you understand?
ReplyDeleteThe article I gave you is by a Sri Lankan journalist...not an LTTE website. This journalist has also been targetted by the LTTE. So he is not exactly a fan of them.
Anyway, thanks, I will read it.
To lok at just one aspect, First Tamil businessmen (mostly Indian Tamils merchants from Pettah) were abducted.
ReplyDeleteNow Muslims are disappearing as well.
How long before a Sinhala businessman is targeted?
Isn't this exactly what happened in Colombia with the paramilitaries set up to fight the leftisy guerillas? The paramilitaries started off killing leftist guerillas but then went out of control, kidnapping, extorting, killing in a reign of terror that has only just been ended.
Well, the people responsible for these abductions are supposedly Tamil paramilitaries. Why should we get involved. We've got nothing to gain here. The government only has a limited amount of resources and LTTE has stretched them to the limit.
ReplyDeleteHow do you propose that we engage these paramilitaries - using the same tactics we've using against LTTE and JVP? Would that not also violate the human rights of countless innocent people? Is it a reasonable cost?
As long as the military isn't directly involved and Sinhalese aren't being abducted, I think the government should keep its hands off the issue. These are Tamils who are killing other Tamils - so it's their issue. I don't think they would spoil the good game by trying to target Sinhalese - surely there must be enough rich Tamils and Muslims to go around for all.
Let's think of it as a form of income distribution. The perpetrators are poor Eastern Tamil Robinhoods and the victims are corrupt rich Colombo Tamils.
We can't afford to fight these people while we've got to deal with LTTE in three fronts (North, East and Colombo). Let's just brush it under the carpet.
If foreigners are so concerned about the situation, why don't they go ahead and pay the Sri Lankan army and police for the services. Our tax money is not going to pay for this.
Suspect this post is for the purpose of attracting traffic. Am I right?
ReplyDeleteFirst Justmal i don't think your tax money is what is at stake here, because you speak from Ozzie. Second, it's not going to be long before the Sinhalese get hit. If you only bothered to travel around in SL you will realise the havoc that the HR situation and the war has wreaked on the economy. Sinhalese are not doing too well outside Colombo my dear fellow, so there's a clear obligation even for a Sinhala racist government to do something.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there is no income redistribution here. The Karuna group fills up their coffers until they get rich enough to be independent and then the shit will hit the ceiling. There is a hell of a lot of Muslim unrest in the East and recently a police patrol was attacked by angry Muslim mobs because they were angry about the state protection given to Karuna. And if the Muslims fight, everyone gets fucked. Hell, the Sinhalese have hardly been able to defeat an isolated group from a community that is fairly pacifist and has little or no martial heritage. Imagine what happens if the Muslims start fighting? They'll trample the incompetent and corrupt Sinhala military with all the Saudi money etc before you can even say "Kobbekaduwa"
Paramilitaries of the Karuna group are working hand in glove with the government. The government is choosing to look the other way - because their allies are doing it.
ReplyDeleteThis is the government's way of rewarding its allies.
The problem is that once people start seeing the money involved others start getting involved. Rogue policemen, according to the IGP have already been implicated in some of these.
AFter a bit we may see something of a free for all.
Now its not only tamils disappearing, muslims are falling victim as well (the tamils are packing up and leaving so the pool of pickings is dying up)
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/03/16/srilanka_wideweb__470x305,0.jpg
ReplyDeleteThe Government turns a blind eye...an armed cadre guards the TMVP office in the village of Kiran near Batticaloa.
Photo: Andrew Meares
Tamil children swept up as war creates a new monster
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/tamil-children-swept-up-as-war-creates-a-new-monster/2007/03/16/1173722744349.html
So what's your alternative solution - start a war against Karuna and the assorted paramilitary groups?
ReplyDeleteHe's only a few hundred strong and is still severely in need of govt protection. What's more the group is split down the middle and both factions need the govt to protect themselves from the other. Just disarm the buggers...no fuss...even the sl military can do that in quick time. If you don't do it now, it may be too late a few years down the line
ReplyDeleteOn Karuna, have a look at the article in thsi week's Sunday Times
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sundaytimes.lk/070603/News/news5.html
This is a slightly more unusual case from the normal ones but it does shed some light on the situ.
the last para is particularly startleing:
"One victim provided evidence to this claim by saying that his abductors had stopped the jeep, some distance from security forces checkpoints, and got clearance after one or two of the abductors walked up to the checkpoint and showed some identity cards."
basically Karuna is supposed to be working with state patronage. They are rumoured to carry Ministry of Defence passes. Remove the patronage, allow the police to do their normal jobs without interfernce from above and the problem will disappear.
ReplyDeleteSri Lankan government can end up like Israelis who funded similar groups to undermine the PLO. The Hamas is one of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
ReplyDeleteHeard on the grapevine Karuna had property in Colombo but the government was trying to get him out for fear of bombs in his vicinity, also heard he was gifted property in malaysia.
L -> "Suspect this post is for the purpose of attracting traffic. Am I right?"
ReplyDeleteI express my opinions, you express yours. So does every one else in blogsphere. When I speak about politics or GoSL - LTTE conflict, it attract traffic, when I speak about .NET it doesn't. But nevertheless I keep posting any thing that comes to my mind.
The thread is drastically drifted from it's original concern. So I'm letting those who wish to debate do that and am keeping away.
Sorry Mahasen, just checking.
ReplyDeleteYou might have already read this; I think it is related to your post.
http://lankawhistleblower.blogspot.com/2007/06/beating-dead-horse-state-sponsored.html
ie Sinhalese businessmen are now being abducted.
You expressed a personal fear of being killed by the LTTE, which concerned me. I was thinking of asking you what grounds you have for fearing this. Sadly, from the map you provided in an earlier post I sense the location of your workplace may be one. It is probably a good idea for the sake of personal safety, if you havnt already done this, to discuss in a pragmatic sense what the dangers are and how to avoid them. I think its unfair...how innocent people have to suffer for this mess. Maybe even on your blog, people living in colombo could provide some suggestions.
Over here, we have been advised not to go to Sri Lanka, because of threats of bombs as well as the detentions and abductions. The departmemt of foreign office has made the risks quite clear to us.
What's wrong is wrong no matter done by whom to whom. Like wise what's right is right even if it's done by Prabhakaran himself.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter whether it's sinhalese, tamils or muslims.
If they are terror suspects, it's perfectly ok to detain them for extended periods without pressing charges.
If the abductions are politically motivated or are for ransoms, then it's wrong.
Oh to answer your question L, The fear is because of the terrorist activities of LTTE targeting civilians. Abandoning work places or running away would not solve the problem. If they came to Colombo from NE, they’d follow us to where ever we go. We Sinhalese don’t have any other country to call home. That’s why it’s necessary to eliminate terrorism from this country. And to do that, certain compromises have to be made.
ReplyDelete"Abandoning work places or running away would not solve the problem."
ReplyDeleteI have not made any suggestions of this nature. Not an expert, but I assumed there were other options.
I think from reading your posts, only time will provide the wisdom of hindsight.
True wisdom is when people read and analyse lessons from the past and approach the future with these lessons in mind.
I have utilised your blog a great deal during the last couple of weeks to try and find out about the current state of sinhala nationlism, and where it is heading. Thanks for putting up with this and answering all my questions despite difference of opinion. I think now I have a clearer picture. I don't need to keep bugging you anymore!!
I wish you the very best Mahasen. You are fortunate you even have the option to seek refuge in places within the country of your birth and your ancestor's birth.